EP #167

Pathfinder: Non-Alcoholic Hemp Seed Spirit with Kraig Rovensky

alcoholic minimalist podcast

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In this episode, Molly Watts delves into the world of non-alcoholic spirits with Craig Romanski, the global brand ambassador for Pathfinder, a hemp-based spirit. They explore the potential of non-alcoholic drinks in the bar industry, emphasizing the importance of inclusivity and unique flavor profiles. Craig shares insights into the growth and future plans for Pathfinder, aiming to become a well-known brand by expanding distribution and hosting events. They discuss the versatility of non-alcoholic drinks and their role in promoting a healthy relationship with alcohol, inviting listeners to learn more about Pathfinder’s offerings and personalized answers at drinkthepathfinder.com.

Welcome to the alcohol minimalist podcast. I’m your host Molly watts. If you want to change your drinking habits and create a peaceful relationship with alcohol, you’re in the right place. This podcast explores the strategies I use to overcome a lifetime of family alcohol abuse, more than 30 years of anxiety and worry about my own drinking, and what felt like an unbreakable daily drinking habits. Becoming an alcohol minimalist means removing excess alcohol from your life. So it doesn’t remove you from life. It means being able to take alcohol or leave it without feeling deprived. It means to live peacefully, being able to enjoy a glass of wine without feeling guilty, and without needing to finish the bottle. With Science on our side will shatter your past patterns and eliminate your excuses. Changing your relationship with alcohol is possible. I’m here to help you do it. Let’s start now. Well, hello and welcome or welcome back to the alcohol minimalist podcast with me your host Molly Watts coming to you from Oh my friends, it is a record breaking Oregon right now. Five days here in Oregon, back to back to back of glorious sunshine, record setting temperatures we are up in the high 70s pushing towards at potentially tomorrow, maybe a sign of global warming. I don’t know if that should concern us all. But right now I’m just loving it. And it has been glorious, really, truly. Such a wonderful, wonderful stretch here in the late winter, early spring timeframe for Oregon. How are you doing? I welcome you to the show. If you’ve been around for a while then welcome back. And before we get started, I do have a couple of prize winners. As a reminder, I do prize winners every other week, I do one random drawing, I do one chosen winner, and you get to win some alcohol, minimalist swag. And the way you get entered is you either leave a review of the podcast wherever you’re listening to the podcast, and or you are going to leave a review of my book breaking the bottle legacy. And whichever one you do is perfectly great. And then you will get entered. I have a big spreadsheet. And I like I said there’s a random drawing every week. And you can even leave comments on YouTube or Spotify, which is actually where my random prize through our prize winner came this week. So if you are Laurie Crosby to 906 That’s Laurie Crosby 2906, you are a random Prize winner, you can email me Molly at Molly watts.com. Thank you for leaving comments on YouTube, they help this content be found. And I will send you out some alcohol, minimalist swag for your efforts. So thank you. And my chosen reviewer this week is s Keller and s Keller left a review of my book on Amazon. And here’s what it says. And it was a recent review. So that was awesome to see, as Molly Watts has written the book of immense insight and compassion. She knows her audience from the inside out because she has walked the walk. The wisdom she shares resonates deeply and continues to help me on my journey to minimize alcohol. I recommend this outstanding book to anyone who is considering making a profoundly helpful change in their lives. Molly Watts gives readers the tools they need to succeed. She cares. Well escolar thank you so very much for that kind review. I do care. I care about all of you. I care about you listening, I care about those of you who are taking the time to read the book to to do the work. And like I tell people all the time, if you’re doing it right, this is work that you’re going to want to keep doing for the rest of your life. And I hope that that is true for all of you. I really do. And I do care about everyone who is listening and wanting to make this change in their lives. One more way that you might be able to make some steps forward is to if you’ve if you’re new to the podcast especially is the podcast listening guide. That is a free resource on the website, go to guide dot Molly watts.com. That’s guide dot Molly watts.com and pick up a copy of the podcast listening guide. It’s basically 15 curated episodes that will help you start distilling, for lack of a better word, all of this information, because there’s a lot of content now we’ve got almost 170 episodes and so the podcast listening guide is just a really great way to know How to start consuming all of this information. And to get started on changing your own relationship with alcohol, go there, pick it up. And that’ll help another free resource for you to use. Today on the podcast, a very fun interview, I am talking to Craig Romanski. And Craig is the global brand ambassador and vibe master. For Pathfinder, it is the Pathfinder drink the Pathfinder, it is a non alcoholic hemp based spirit. And I was really intrigued by the Pathfinder about their story. They’re from the Seattle area. That’s where my roots are. Craig has a long standing history in the bar industry, a big bar on Capitol Hill and Seattle. Life on Mars is his hand. He became involved with Pathfinder and hearing the story about this. I haven’t tried it yet. Full disclosure, like I told I said that in the in the episode, you’ll hear me say it. But I was so intrigued by the story. And I really wanted to share it, because it’s got such great reviews and the way they’re building the brand is so amazing. They’re actually having a party here in Portland next month in April. So I’m super excited, because I’m gonna go there and try it. I think it’s interesting, the non alcoholic space is just growing so much. And I am hopeful that over the course of this year, I’m gonna have more and more of these people who are creating such innovative and fantastic products on the show. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Here is my interview with Craig Romanski. A good morning, Craig, thank you so much for taking the time to be with me on the alcohol minimalist podcast. And Happy St. Patrick’s Day, by the way. Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. So nobody else is looking at you. But I gotta say you kind of look like an Irish an Irish kind of Captain for this. Is that ring true or no? No Irish in your background? There is a small amount of Irish in my blood, but I am I’m mostly British and Scottish. Yeah, I’m the I’m the Vikings, Viking of Scotland. It’s just kind of what’s Yeah, got it. Got it. So well, I am really looking forward to having this conversation. I want to bring more opportunities for people to include alcohol free beverages into their lives. And exploring non alcoholic spirits is something that a lot of people are just starting to learn about. And really this whole idea. So let’s talk about Pathfinder. And where this started and how it got going, and how you are, as I think you are the guy, the brand ambassador for Pathfinder, tell me about it all. Yeah. So that kind of kind of came from the question of what’s the future of the bar? What’s the future of the back bar. And when you think when you’re thinking about kind of where culture was, you know, this is just pre COVID. Like products like C lipid already launched and non ALC. Beer and other things were kind of becoming a bigger, bigger thing. And younger, the younger generation was leaning away from alcohol and more into marijuana, and psilocybin and other ways of altering mind state. And so the question kind of was, what’s the future look like? And it’s clearly not okay, and it’s cannabis. And then the question was changed to what would a cannabis spirit look like? When you think of whiskey? Think of the grains that is made for me think of how it’s made me think of gin, you think of juniper? So what would a true like THC spirit look like one day and that to us? The answer to that was it would be made from hemp it would be made from the plant and making a THC spirit and getting it into a bar is impossible. Right? Right. Where to begin with that was our idea was created an animal experience, not with the intention of creating something meant for sobriety or meant for like a diet or or health choice but meant to just make something that tasted good. And so we we created Pathfinder from that from that question, a spirit that is made from hemp seed and as far as we can tell, we were the only people who had ever fermented and distilled hemp seeds, but we have a very low ABV fermentation and distillation process. So by the time we just still add in all of our other botanicals, add in a little bit of sugar to create a balanced liquid and a couple of other ingredients we get down to 0.5% which is legally not alcohol, there is more alcohol and a hamburger bun that you can buy at the grocery store. I got involved a little bit later, the liquid was already being developed. I got to taste some of our early iterations but I came in with the intention of just helping them launch and going back to my bar and the more and more I got involved in the more that you know I was leaving my mark on the on the brand I decided that this is just what I wanted to do. So Though I left the day to day of my bar that I own in Seattle and, and go fully into this. So you mentioned this to me before we started recording, you have a long history in the bar industry. So this is a really interesting background to bring to this conversation, because clearly selling alcohol is an important part of being a bar owner. Correct? Correct. I mean, an important part of you know, how a bar succeeds. And yet, just as you mentioned, the future of I think bars has to include non alcoholic options and really embracing that non alcoholic, the NA spirits, the NA beers, the NA, you know, everything to try to if somebody ever creates a non alcoholic red wine, that’s really wonderful, everybody will be super excited about it. But it’s that perspective that you bring, and that perspective of how do we live a balanced life between alcohol and non alcoholic spirits? What I heard you say is that you guys didn’t that that Pathfinder wasn’t really created for people trying to, you know, avoid alcohol or to avoid or embrace sobriety or alcohol free living, yet, it will be used and, you know, definitely enjoyed by people who are trying to find options and ways to cut back, minimize reduce, avoid alcohol in their lives. Yeah, yeah, for us, it was we wanted to create the ability to choose that you could have something non alcoholic, that still tasted amazing, or you can mix it with alcohol and just lower the amount of alcohol that you’re consuming, right, sort of be foolproof drink a half drink. And, and yeah, it’s again, just more about the actual flavor. It’s not the, it’s not the health benefits of not drinking, you know, there is sugar in there. So you’re still, you’re still consuming something that’s not necessarily good for you, but it is better. But it’s like, yeah, it’s more about the choice. And you know, when I think about like, owning a bar and the drinks that we serve, and having worked in bars for years, to me, the thing that’s always been important is inclusivity, if someone’s sitting at the bar, and they have decided to not drink for whatever period of time it is, whether it’s just that evening or a week or a month or or for the rest of their lives, they should still feel included, and they should still feel like they’re having something that interests them, and that excites them. And that makes them feel like part of what is happening. And if they’re just sitting there drinking a soda or even worse, if they’re just sitting there drinking the water. They’re not like if they’re just sitting there drinking water, I’m I’m technically at that point paying them to drink that water, right. And that still is, you know, going back to like, we sell alcohol to make money, well, if I could just give them water, well, I’m not making anything off of that either. And so there is obviously a money piece of this. But to me, it’s the more important piece is making sure that they feel like they belong. And there’s up until these last number of years with the explosion of non alcoholic products all over the place. Like the options are pretty small. Now, this is growing category with tons of different things. And you know, it really, it can make people feel like they’re not missing out at all, which I think is really important. Yeah. So you mentioned seed lip. I know people are probably familiar with, they’re one of the first kind of these distilled spirits. But talk to me about Pathfinder, and how unique it is in this in this, you know, category of distilled spirits. Because I think, from what I can tell, and and in full transparency, folks, I haven’t tried it yet, but I want to the flavor profile appears to me to have a lot of nuance and a lot of difference. And people are really appreciating that. Yeah, I mean, I think you really have to hand it to see but that they created an entire category, essentially, they were not the first but they were the first to get big. And they created a category of what is essentially just distilled water. And it is like it is pretty remarkable that they came out at a pretty high price point. And in my opinion that like a liquid that really wasn’t insanely enticing. It creates great drinks, don’t get me wrong, I think he deserves a place in the world. But when I think of like why I drink alcohol, and I think of the things that like excite me about alcohol, like there is more than just a flavor. There’s a texture, there’s a mouthfeel there’s like an experience and that’s kind of what we want it to go in that direction instead. And to us it was really important to be 100% real. We didn’t want to use like artificial sweeteners or artificial thickeners like Xantham Gum or any of the other things we wanted to feel real and sugar is really the only answer to that. And we weren’t inspired by any one product that existed. We were inspired by the golden age of cannabis and we which coincided with that exact same time the 1830s to the 1930s is also when like all of Beer great amaro brand started learning to think of like the big ones that have been around for a long time. They all kind of started around that era. And being wanting to create something that really tasted like a whiff of the West, you know, it’s it’s hemp seed, it’s Douglas fir tips that are hand harvested for us in Washington State. It’s, it’s a lot of warm wood, and gentian, and things that are all found within the Cascade Mountain regions. We all of those ingredients are also using tomorrow. And so there is a little there’s a similarity to tomorrow to vermouth that kind of world of Italian, herbal bittersweet liquors. And I would say that that’s most what our flavor profile is like, but we don’t taste like any one product that existed before. We wanted it to be just its own thing, which I think is, to me it, that’s a feature of non alcoholic spirits, because you’re never going to fully replicate gin or whiskey or tequila. It’s never going to be the same. But you can create so many unique flavor profiles. And I think it’s really interesting that we started with that, see that did that. And now there’s lots of people trying to replicate things. But I feel like we’re starting to go back into like, lots of brands and are coming out with very unique flavors and the Nanak sphere and kind of just exploring what essentially can be the Wild West, we can do whatever we want. Right? And it’s it I love what you’re saying, because what it basically means is like, we don’t have to go try to capture a non alcoholic whiskey or a non alcoholic tequila as a as an alternative to you know, is it trying to like substitute something so that it’s tit for tat, right? So that’s because people go into it, especially people who are really no, like whiskey drinkers. They’re really like, Okay, I gotta find, you know, I really want a non alcoholic option, but I just can’t find one that tastes like whiskey. Well, no, you’re not, you know, it’s not gonna, it’s not really gonna happen. So, but what I love about this, and from what I can tell, like I said, from people from reading reviews, and what people are saying about it is they are appreciating it for being an option that feels like you’re experiencing something like that. But you get all the benefits of not having the alcohol attached to it. I mean, Amaro as a category was never about alcohol. It’s just that that’s the only way that we could get flavor out of something and and make it shelf stable. Back then. Now there is we’ve we’ve learned multiple methods. We’ve also learned that like, like, we don’t use any preservatives and Pathfinder Wormwood is a natural preservative that makes them you know, we can we have one of the longest shelf life on the market, and we don’t use anything to get that. But when you’re thinking of alcohol, and you’re thinking of long distances traveled and stuff like that, where these things were going like they had to use alcohol to fortify Amaro, but it was more about the herbs it was about the digestive properties that we could help with. It was about like, in most of the Morrowind vermouth on it that was created back then was created by pharmacists or herbalist. It was it was medicine. Again, it’s just like that’s the only way that we knew how to get those benefits out of the plants and herbs was using alcohol to get it. And so when you’re drinking Amaro, a lot of them are like very they’re lower ABV most of them in general there’s a few that are higher but most of them are so low and in alcohol that you don’t really taste alcohol, you taste the earthy taste the sugar the sweetening it and so for us like if you were to take us in line with with other amaro like there wouldn’t really be a noticeable difference right not in like most of those other ones don’t have like a burn or anything there’s no like there’s not a lot that would really determine the difference and so we kind of just fit right in as if we always were there it’s hemp based now so I want to talk to you about this because you you said literally like our if if we could have we would have like created a liquid that had THC properties in it and get it into a bar and that’s just not it’s just totally not gonna be able to happen anytime soon. I don’t think but so, are there any therapeutic benefits of a hemp spaced any at all because I mean we all know about it. I mean hemp has medicinal properties to it in and of itself that don’t have anything to do with THC. So yes, no. So we use hemp seed and hemp seed is a part of the plant that can be used for human consumption. That’s why you buy a bag of it and a whole foods right? But hemp seeds they have no CBD or THC so there’s no worry about any of that. As far as like actual health benefits we don’t we make bold claims that are their fundraising tongue in cheek and don’t really mean anything you know, we won’t feed but I can’t claim that like, like hemp seed is good for health. It is good for your health. It’s good for the heart. It’s good for blood circulation and some other things but with the way in which we processed and then again, the fact that we do add sugar like yes, there is probably something good in there but it’s being countered at some other things and I’m not making it health claim, you know, I love the fact that you guys like to say on the website like from the era of like snake oil salesmen like, you know, you kind of like do the whole yes tongue in cheek and and no, but I mean, bottom line is folks that if you are drinking something that is that instead of your knightly alcohol, you know, for people that are trying to minimize alcohol in their lives who are trying to cut back because there are known risk factors to including alcohol in your life on a daily basis. And so that’s something that, you know, it’s it’s there, and it has to be an improvement in my opinion, even with the sugar. So, I mean, yeah, I would agree with that statement. Yeah, I mean, alcohol is a poison after all, I’m I’m quite literally a poisoned seller. And so there is yes, and that in that sense, it is, it is certainly better for you, but we again, not claiming to be a health drink. We just claim that we destroy bad vibes, I can guarantee that positively. We’ll have that we destroy bad vibes. It’s so awesome. Just a quick break to talk with you more about sunny side. Did you know that Sunny Side uses science to help you reach your goals by focusing on three scientifically proven superpowers that you have. Number one, the power of pre commitment. Each week, you set an intention for the week ahead. That includes a tracking goal, a drink goal, and possibly a dry day goal. Number two, the power of conscious interference. You’ll learn the habit of tracking each day as soon as you finish it, which creates a mindful pause before you start the next day. And number three positivity. We know that this is a big step that can be tough at times. Right. And that’s why Sunnyside offers coaching through SMS and email to give you support advice and motivation. You can check out a free 15 day trial at www.sunnyside.co/molly. That’s www.sunnyside.co/molly. Okay, tell me more about now Pathfinders kind of, like you said it started in Seattle from the website. It sounds like it was kind of in local bars around Seattle. And then it began getting so popular that you it was like well, we better take this to market kind of you know, this is going to be bigger than than Seattle. Tell me what looks like what it’s looked like for the last few years and where 2024 is headed for Pathfinder. Yeah, so we we launched very, very, very timely, and it was very purposeful. And that’s to bring up seedlip, again, are when seedlip Launch seedlip launched in one neighborhood in London. And they on sent to every bar, every restaurant, every boutique store, they were available in like the wedding dress shop, they were available in the barber shop, they they did like a full immersion and they didn’t let anyone else buy it. There was this one neighborhood and that was it. And to the the idea was you couldn’t walk down the street without encountering it, there would be posters or be up like everything would be all around. And so we really took a lot of inspiration from that. And we launched in one neighborhood in Seattle called Capitol Hill. That’s where my bar is located. When we first launched, I mean we quite literally my bar was the only place that had it, which was we just didn’t that was we only have the Bibles to give to one place really. And then we slowly started seeping out of there into some other bars in the neighborhood. But we really launched with the intention of that and you know what, like this, it’s the brand was not like created by mistake. Our founding team is full of a lot of heavy hitters. A guy named Chris Abbott, who owns a couple of wheat brands out of Washington State Mr. Fox easements and tournaments coming he’s got two guys Columbia who ran Johnnie Walker worldwide for diazo. For 27 years, he worked in emerging brands for quite some time. And then a gentleman named Steven grass and Steven is the guy that created the brand of Hendricks gin and Sailor Jerry’s rum, not the actual liquid but the brand world around it. And so though we launch very tiny and very small, it was always the intention of of this was only temporary and the intention was always to go big. And we for six months were Seattle exclusive. And that’s when I in January two years ago, I moved back to New York City and being non alcoholic, we can ship anywhere we want without needing to follow the rules of liquor. And so we started getting a lot of accounts outside of Washington State where we had proper distribution and we started growing, you know, a decent chunk of people everywhere else and then we last year signed a distribution agreement with Stoli group surly vodka. Yeah. And so They are taking us, we basically get to be a tiny brand and a big distribution company, but we’re gonna get to be looked at like a big brand. And through that power, we launched three states in January, we launched into Illinois, Florida and California. And we are now looking at launching into well, we’ve been in Oregon for some time, but we’re actually having a full on launch party in Portland and April. Hey, if you’re I come and be invited. Thank you launching into New York in June and Pennsylvania in the fall. And we you know, we have always had grand plans of how big ago we’ve soft launch into Alberta, Canada, we have a brand ambassador in London, who’s slowly seeding us into England. But for us, it’s not about growing as big as we can as quickly as Ghana. It’s really methodical. There’s every everything we have done is purposeful and well thought out. And we have we have a whole plan laid out for the next five years of what states we’re going to go to and when and how and why. And yeah, so that I guess answer the question on the future. It’s eventually the idea has Pathfinder is everywhere, just like Hendrix, Jen, we want to be like, just like that, where you look at Hendrix and Hendrix is in the craft cocktail bar, it’s in the dive bar, it’s in the venue, it’s in the duty free shop. It’s just, it’s everywhere. And it’s just one thing, it’s just Hendrix just makes Hendrix. Right, they have a couple of other Limited Edition gins that come out from time to time, but it really is just the one thing. And that’s we want to be like that for the Nanak world we want to be in just every bar, you can be like, we are in the high end cocktail bars. And then we’re also in the crappy diners and they’d like the plates that just have more character. You know, I love that. And I assume just like you said, heavy hitters and people that are very, I would guess, protective of the brand and of the roots and of the story and of the narrative. And it sounds like Stoli is letting you guys drive that train and not the other way around. Yeah, yeah, they have been very helpful in offering advice and in you know, having it we again, get the power of of their team behind us, but they have really let us just kind of be us and they have a minority investment in us so they don’t get really to tell us what to do and and they just kind of have been letting us you know, ride our own train so so tell me what it looks like as a brand ambassador sort of the the captain Viking captain for the Pathfinder brand. What is your like? You are because we’re talking you’re in Chicago, you are you pay rent in New York. But you’re you’re moving all over? Like I mean, so what do you do on a regular basis? Are you you’re going in like throwing the throwing the party, you’re gonna be in Portland? Am I going to see you there? And we’re gonna have a awesome, what’s that? Tell me what that looks like. So I, I’m pretty blessed this this year, while late last year, and this year, we’ve been slowly building an amazing brand ambassador team, we have a regional network of people. So we have someone based in Seattle as someone based in San Fran, Miami, Chicago, soon to be New York and soon to be Austin, Texas. And they, you know, they have a whole big chunk of area that they manage, and I kind of float between all of them. But yeah, I’m the guy that that gets to show up at parties and be the face of the brand I get to talk about the brand I get to live Pathfinder. And it’s a it is a lot of work the travel is a lot I grew up, I was a band manager for years. So I’m pretty used to being on the road and gone all the time. And this is feels like an extension of that in its own way. Yeah, I get to really like bring the brand to life, I suppose. And my team again is very amazing, they do a lot of like, logistical planning of how these events will go and I get to show up and kind of you know, reap the benefits of those but I get to be very involved in how they feel and how they look and it’s really nice to be able to just feel like I am we’re constantly creating new ways to bring the brand to life in a different way and and show up in different ways and it’s you know, as we start to see set our sights on on greater greener, greater pastures It’s amazing to think of, you know, the the parties that one day we could be throwing in Europe or Australia or Japan, these other places. So because the non alcoholic industry has taken off so much over the last few years. Are these more where you guys are participating in events? Are these one off events? These are these are Pathfinder driven like your events hosting it? Yeah, a little bit of both. We we launched we’re very bar focused brands of our bartenders bar people are our world like that’s where we really want to focus on and so doing things like Portland cocktail week or bar, convent, Brooklyn, or San Antonio Coxwell week or these other kinds of very bar focused ambassador or bar focused activations is really important to us. And so there’s a little bit of both in the sense of like this party we’re going to have in Portland and in April is, is going to be our launch party. And it’s very, it’s going to be very Pathfinder focus, and it’s just us. But later in April, literally, not even a full week after that launch party, we will be in San Diego for San Diego bartenders weekend, it is a four day little gathering in San Diego that brings in hundreds of bartenders from across the country. And we are throwing a party Cassiel embrace spirits, which is a spirits portfolio based out of Mexico, they have a gin they have a vodka, they have a corn whiskey and a corn look here in their portfolio. And we are just starting a party with them, where we get to show up and show that like we as a non ALC can be in this party that is the with an alcoholic brand. And we get to mix the two together and allow its people to like experience the fun of being in this amazing party, but don’t feel the pressure of they have to drink to be there, which is very prevalent and has been very prevalent these bar activations for years and think, over the last number of years only a couple of before COVID. And then as we’re coming out of COVID, like a lot of people have been realizing like, oh, I don’t need to get drunk and wasted every single party I go to and like, I can still have fun with my friends drink something that’s really cool and interesting. And feel like I belonged. Yeah, I mean, you know, preaching to the choir around here, because that’s what I talk about all the time. I mean, it’s really a stories, the narratives that we have around alcohol, that persist that drive us to these desire the, to a desire to include that. And believe that that’s the way that we have fun. And then you try a non alcoholic drink like this, and you have an even better time because you don’t wake up the next morning feeling like crap. And you’re, you actually remember all the conversations that you had. And it’s and you didn’t, you didn’t miss out, you know, this idea that you that which drives so many people in their habit, because they feel like they’re gonna miss out on something by not drinking alcohol. And these non alcoholic drinks give us the option to not feel like we’re missing out. I think more so than like you said, like having just a glass of water. Right. Exactly. Yeah, agree. Before we get off the air here, I just want to hear from you. Like, tell me how people enjoy Pathfinder. Like, what are the options? Like I know you can just drink it like neat on the rocks. What and you you just mentioned like mixing it with alcoholic beverages as well. What are you seeing what are people doing? How are they enjoying Pathfinder? Yeah, so we we set out to make a drink that you could drink on his own, it didn’t need soda, it didn’t need, you know, whatever to be something, you can literally just crack open a bottle poured over, pour it neat, or even on the on the rocks and like, it would be good enough, you know, it would be exciting. And I think that that is like how I always encourage people to try it first, just like see. But I think one of the most interesting things about Pathfinder is how it changes depending on what it is mixed with topping off with soda and adding a little splash of citrus, whether that’d be lemon or in my my personal favorite is grapefruit because it’s a little bit more bitter, really brings out like a very different characteristic in the liquid. My personal favorite way of drinking Pathfinder has been 5050 with layers apple brandy, or Calvinists, just an apple brandy in general, as it just feels like kind of like the Manhattan the Negroni thing and it’s like, again, lowers the amount of alcohol I am drinking. But it’s like yeah, to me, just incredibly tasty. I have over the last number of years kind of changed my relationship to alcohol. And for me, it’s, it’s, you know, all of all, the team of Pathfinder we all drink. It’s not to but we all you know, for us, it’s, again, going back to the choice and for me, I only really drink if it’s like a celebration of some kind. Or if, if I’m at a bar and I see something on the menu that like, calls to me, like it’s like such an interesting flavor profile that like I have to try that kind of deal. Like to me it’s like a professional thing at that point. But when I look at a menu, like I don’t, I’m not looking at alcohol versus non alcoholic drinks. I’m just looking for flavors that excite me and like something that like sounds too good to not have like, I need to know what it tastes like, you know, so I think that one of the things that I I greatly respect bartenders and the their creativity and what they’ve been able to do is the amount of places that I go to and I’m like, I have no idea how that has Pathfinder, and how that’s gonna taste like I need to know how that works like someone did like a black sesame Negroni with Pathfinder, that will add in an alcoholic cocktail had a black sesame it was a bowl of RDA, suppose black sesame infused whiskey and in the and coconut Campari and I was like, I need to know how Pathfinder works in there. Like, I just have to have that. It sounds really interesting. God, it sounds really Yeah, I mean, I would want to find that out too. So, but I really appreciate that I appreciate the fact that you’re focused on flavors, and, you know, experience and all of that, as opposed to the alcohol and trying to, you know, because people typically are overusing alcohol or using alcohol in a way that doesn’t align with their long term goals or their health or anything else. It’s typically because they’re using it in a way to try to change how they’re feeling. And that’s, you know, when we take that out of the equation, when you’re not looking at alcohol as your agent of fun or your agent of escape, right, you can open yourself up to a lot of opportunity for exploring some really fun drinks that you know that and just because you want to try it. Yeah, for sure. Well, Craig Romanski it has been super fun to talk to you super fun to learn about Pathfinder. Tell my audience where they can learn more. Yeah, so easiest would be our website, which is drink the pathfinder.com, which is also our Instagram and Facebook handles. My personal one is Craig, the Pathfinder on Instagram. That’s correct. Okay. Mention both. Yeah, I mean, you’re certainly welcome to shoot me a message and ask Pathfinder questions. Whenever I’m always going to answer whatever I can. And our website has is chock full of information and their Instagram is always putting out some very amazing content. So I definitely recommend it. Awesome. Drink the pathfinder.com. Folks, I will link that in our show notes. And Craig Romanski. Super great to have you on the show. And I wish you guys all the best in everything moving forward. And I definitely want an invite to the party here in Portland in April, you know? All right. Thanks, Greg. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to the alcohol minimalist podcast. Take something you learned from this week’s episode and put it into action. Changing your drinking habits and creating a peaceful relationship with alcohol is 100% possible. You can stop worrying Stop feeling guilty about over drinking and become someone who desires alcohol less. I work with people in three ways. You can learn about them over at www dot Molly watts.com/work with me, or better yet, reach out to me directly. It’s Molly at Molly watts.com. We’ll jump on a call and discuss what’s best for you. This podcast is really just the beginning of our conversation. Let’s keep it going.