EP #45

The Sinclair Method of Reducing Alcohol Consumption with Katie Lain

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In Episode 45 of Breaking the Bottle Legacy, Molly engages in a conversation with Katie Lain about the Sinclair Method, a treatment for alcohol use disorder. The discussion delves into the method, involving the medication Naltrexone, an opiate blocker. Katie shares her journey, challenges in finding doctors knowledgeable about the method, and the importance of following the protocol consistently. The Sinclair Method is portrayed as a transformative approach, offering control over drinking and a 78% success rate. The episode highlights the complexities of changing habits, the importance of time, and the psychological aspects of the process. Molly and Katie underscore the significance of addressing unconscious beliefs about alcohol and celebrate the journey of transforming the relationship with alcohol. The episode concludes with a focus on small, consistent steps, taking control of thoughts, and the empowerment that comes from changing the alcohol narrative. Molly encourages listeners to apply the insights from the episode to their lives.

You’re listening to break in the bottle legacy with Molly watts, Episode 45. Hi, I’m Molly, after a lifetime living under the influence of family alcohol abuse, spending more than 30 years worrying about alcohol and my own drinking, believing I had an unbreakable daily drinking habit, I changed my relationship with alcohol forever. If you want to change your drinking habits than breaking the bottle legacy is for you. My goal is to help you create a peaceful relationship with alcohol, past, present, and future. Each week all focus on real science and using your own brain to change your relationship with alcohol. Nothing has gone wrong, you’re not broken. You’re not sick. It’s not your genes. And creating peace is possible. I’m here to help you do it. Let’s start now. Well, hello, and welcome or welcome back to breaking the bottle legacy with me your host, Molly Watts coming to you from well, it looks to me it’s a little early this morning. I can’t really tell you what it’s going to do. Or you’re in Oregon. Right now during the fall. You know, it can be start out raining end up being nice. It can start out nice and up raining. We’re kind of in one of those patterns. But I’ve looked ahead and the weather for the weekend. This last weekend in October 1. Yeah, last weekend in October is supposed to be epic. Beautiful. So I’m really looking forward to that. Before I get into my guest this week on the episode because this is dropping the very first week of November, I want to share that I am giving away alcohol, minimalist swag for anybody that enters or anybody that goes and leaves a review, either on the podcast or on my book breaking the bottle legacy if you leave a review, take either a screenshot or just send me a note, give me your reviewer name. And you will be entered into a drawing for alcohol, minimalist swag, some gear that we’ve got. And my first winner is my listener Sue, I’m not gonna go with her last name, but she is in my private Facebook group. She has also left a review she left a review of both the podcast and the book. So she got two entries into the drawing and sue you are my lucky winner. Woohoo. Congratulations. So if you would like to be entered into two weeks from now the middle of the month to drawing for some alcohol, minimalist swag items. Please just go and leave a review of the podcast on whatever your favorite podcast player is and or the book either way, and let me know you did it. Alright, today on the podcast, I am so excited to have this conversation. I am talking with Katie lane. And Katie is the co founder of the Sinclair method community. She’s co founded it with another great TSM for the Sinclair method TSM coach, Karen Dion. And so she and Karen have started this new community. It’s called the TSM community or, or Sinclair method community and you can find them at TSM community.com. I’m going to link all that in my show notes. But Katie really started on the Sinclair method. After her own personal 10 year battle with alcohol, she found a lot of success using the Sinclair method. And she’s been a coach and a mentor for three years. And she is a lifelong advocate of this technique. So I really wanted to have Katie and or Karen on the show and was delighted to have Katie come because this is just an important conversation. And I get a lot of questions about the Sinclair method I don’t think it’s very widely understood or known about. So I am super excited to share my conversation with Katie lane. Hi, Katie, thank you so much for taking the time to be with me here on breaking the bottle legacy this morning. I’m super excited to have this conversation. Because as I shared with you briefly, I feel like I’m not as educated as I want to be on the Sinclair method. And so having this conversation with you here with for my audience is just going to be super valuable not only to me, but I know to them as well. I’m really happy to be here. I yeah, I can’t stop talking about the Sinclair method. To be honest, I’m an open book and can’t wait to share more with you about my experience and just how the method works. So thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here with you, Molly. Awesome. Awesome. So yeah, so let’s just dive in. So tell me more first, just give us your story and kind of how you how the Sinclair method came into your life and then we’ll get into what you’ve done and the Sinclair method community that you’ve found it and what’s happening there and kind of what’s going on, but tell me more about your journey. Yeah, it’s kind is similar to yours where I grew up with my dad was a really heavy drinker until he quit in my childhood, but I grew up in a family where drinking was very much like, kind of respected, I guess you could say like, you could drink someone under the table. And there was always bottles of whiskey and stuff like that. And, and that’s still true to be honest for a lot of my family, but grew up in that environment. So I was kind of exposed to alcohol a lot as I was younger. And it was really something that, you know, you drank, and it was part of every social function no matter what it was. So I actually didn’t really enjoy drinking that much when I first started, because I would see everyone around me getting really drunk and acting ridiculous. So I didn’t really start experimenting with alcohol until I was like 21, or 22. I would have it a little bit before then. But I really didn’t like it that much. And of course, the drinking age here in the US is 21. But you can almost always get it before that. When I hit my very early 20s, I started to drink a lot more I was in a relationship. And my boyfriend at the time was a heavy drinker. And I kind of thought, Oh, this is you know, innocent fun what someone’s supposed to do at this age. But I remember a few years into it, I was thinking, oh man, I don’t remember the last day I went without drinking. Like maybe I should take a break, you know, I’ll just take a little week off or something. And it was really hard to do, because I was battling cravings for alcohol and had a very ingrained habit of drinking, like every single night. And so I made it that full week. But it was really hard. I remember taking like NyQuil to put myself to bed at like seven o’clock, just so I didn’t like have to go through that witching hour. And yeah, that was when I realized, like, oh, shoot, this isn’t just something I’m instantly doing in my 20s it’s actually become an issue. And so that’s when it kind of, you know, rang true to me that oh, my gosh, this is going to be harder to battle than I thought. And that kind of escalated into, you know, six to eight years of really trying to cut back and take breaks and have 30 days sober and those challenges and stuff and always going back to alcohol. And it’s always getting worse than it was before. I appreciate that. And so Okay, so, you know, we’re approaching 30 It sounds like and what did you have one of those rock bottom moments? Or was it just sort of a, you know, an evolution? Yeah, so thankfully, I didn’t have a rock bottom, necessarily, though, I was definitely heading that direction, I could just see my path. Getting more and more in that direction. I someone, I’ll admit, like, I would drink and drive pretty regularly. And so I was doing things like popping my tires on curbs, and I got pulled over one time, and I was intoxicated. And thankfully, the cop didn’t know. But I would say that that was my moment of realizing like, this is getting really bad, like I’m gonna get a DUI whether it’s maybe not this time, but it’s going to be next time. And I hated the fact that I would drink and drive because in my right mind, I knew that’s not what I would do. But as soon as I had a few drinks, I would just, you know, lose all inhibitions and do that. So that was one thing that was like really wearing on me a lot. And a lot of other things. My health, you know, I even though I was only like 30, my health was not good. My liver was hurting all the time, I was hungover three or four days a week. And usually, like really hung over at least one of those days where I was like, vomiting in the toilet and stuff like that. So it just kept getting worse. And I kept trying, like I would go a month or one time I went six months and thinking like this is going to be the time and I would get really motivated and excited and feel like I finally found, you know, this is the time I’m committed. But it would always, you know, go back to drinking and a part of me was kind of praying for that rock bottom thinking, Well, maybe if something got really bad, then that would wake me up enough to finally stop. And so that’s like, really sad to think about now. But that was true. No, I think that’s I think and unfortunately, I think that’s really, you’re not alone in that right? There’s a lot of people who are waiting for some rock bottom moment to, to decide to change their lifestyles, whether that be drinking or their health, or you know, a lot of things that come under that. So I’m glad that you didn’t wait for that, that you didn’t decide to do that. So tell me how you learned about the Sinclair method or how did that come into your life? Yeah, well, probably like a lot of your audience. You know, on one hand, I have one morning when I was hungover, I was just I would always scour Google or YouTube for like sober stories or people that like maybe someone would have that golden ticket of how it worked for them. And I stumbled upon a TEDx talk by an actress named Claudia Christian how she overcame alcoholism using a medication and the Sinclair method and I just thought this is way too good to be true in a way but kind of continue to do more research at that time. That was like over four years ago. Now there was information out there but not a ton like today. There’s so much more information, but it’s still dislike fringe approach to changing your drinking habits to be honest, it’s not mainstream yet. But so I found that TEDx talk and, you know, this method involves taking a medication that’s actually cheap, non addictive, it’s like there’s no, you know, issues with it. For most people, it’s like, not harmful, not addictive, all that, but so you have to get a prescription for it. But the thing is, is that, because a lot of doctors don’t know that this method exists, and they spend very little time in medical school learning about addiction, a lot of just general doctors won’t even give you the prescription. Because they don’t, they don’t feel right about telling someone to keep drinking, if they have a drinking problem. That’s what I’ve learned over like the years of talking with doctors. And there are other reasons, of course, but I remember calling around to like tons of local doctors, and nobody would prescribe it to me and I just moved to new area, I didn’t have like a GP setup. But I call just all of these different doctors offices, I think one was even an addiction specialist. So I kept like getting the door slammed in my face, I was like, What the heck is going on, like, this is really crazy. But then I learned that there are a lot of doctors that you can find in a directory online on the C three foundation that are knowledgeable about this method, they specialize in it, and they will give you a prescription. And the reason these other doctors won’t, it’s just really lack of knowledge. It’s not that it’s unsafe, or that they can’t do it. It’s just they’re not aware of this method for for fixing alcohol problem. So that’s finally got a prescription like a few months after learning about this method. And it changed things like within the first week, I just started to see a difference. And a lot of people might get on this method and think, oh, like you’re taking a pill like, is it going to fix it right away? Or you’re going to replace one substance for another. But that’s not what’s happening at all. And I can talk more about the science behind less. Yeah, yeah. Let’s let’s tell everybody and explain exactly what the Sinclair method is. So you’ve already said so it’s going to involve it involves taking new Eltroxin? Is that how we say naltrexone? Yeah, so one thing I know it’s a tricky one when you first can so it sounds like nowadays, there’s a there’s at least a good online directory for how to find a doctor that’s going to be able to prescribe it for you. But that’s just one part of it is taking the medicine. So tell us more about what else is involved with the Sinclair method. Yeah, absolutely. So it Yeah, it involves taking a medicine and it Naltrexone is an opiate blocker medication. It’s not not an opiate medication. But what it’s doing when you take it is, it’s essentially blocking opioid receptors in your brain, which is the pleasure center in your brain where the pleasure you get from alcohol functions. Because when we drink, as you probably know, it just produces this flood of feel good hormones, and endorphins. And so that’s why it’s so addicting because your brain is like, Yeah, this is great, like, give me more of that. And so when you take the naltrexone as an opiate blocker, you take it one hour before you have your first drink of the day. And it’s blocking those endorphins from latching on to the opioid receptors. And so what happens over time, and it’s most most of the time, it’s pretty subtle for people like each time you drink on the naltrexone, it’s not like the first time everything’s changed, it’s pretty gradual, but you begin to see yourself, a lot of people say it, like they have an off switch, when it comes to alcohol, they’ll take the medication, they’ll drink, and they’ll say, oh, I don’t really get those same Christmas lights as before, like, sure I can enjoy this glass of wine or this beer. But I’m done with one or two, I don’t really want more. And you know, it takes time to get to that place. And you know, I would say like the method to really like see big results, people will see them early on in the first week or the first month. But to really get to the end goal of this method, which I can talk more about, it takes like six to nine months. But when you take the medication and drink on it, you’re not getting that pleasure reinforcement. It doesn’t make you sick, like anti abuse. Yeah, and it can still be really enjoyable to drink. But what happens is you read you regain that control and you get back in the driver’s seat of alcohol and like I would go out for drinks and I’d have like one or two glasses of wine and literally not want for more and feel so empowered around that because before I would go out and most the time just get blackout drunk and have all the intentions not to but once I had a few drinks in me, it was really easy to do that. So this medication, it gives people you know, back control over their drinking and it has a 78% success rate that’s been clinically tested and proven over and over and over again. But it’s on so yeah, such that’s just a huge number of I really want to dive into that or not. I just really want people to hear that because for me I know that I talk about this a lot because I had a daily drinking habit and I was but I was also never really too much of a binge drinker so I don’t have a lot of experience with Well, when I say binge I guess what I mean by that is getting to the point of being really altered blacking out, not remembering, you know, having those kinds of things because technically speaking I want to get really technical I was a binge drinker because I would drink more than you know, for drinks in a night, which is what the NIA says is a binge for women. But for me, I never, I was pretty because of growing up with an alcoholic parent, kind of like what you were talking about, I had a lot of negative association with drunk behavior, which is pretty funny, because even when I was drinking, like if other people were drinking around me, and they were more intoxicated than I was, I would, which was pretty much all the time I didn’t like it. Like, I don’t like that I still don’t like that feeling. To be honest, I have to really like work with myself, not to be, you know, to just, like, relax through that with other people. But so what I’m saying about that is that for me, I’ve never had that issue where once I figured out what was driving my habits, and really being able to change how I was thinking about alcohol, and realizing that the alcohol itself was likely causing some of my rebound anxiety because of the neurotransmitters and really understanding the science. For me personally, the cravings sort of just dissipated on their own over time. So I’m excited to hear more about this as it as especially as it applies to people who really probably are drinking, you know, more than I did on a regular basis. Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, you know, when you get on this method, sometimes people because I’m a coach for people, I’ve, like, seen, like so many different experiences through this method. And sometimes people think, oh, I’ll just take a pill, and it’s going to fix everything. And, you know, I’m three years sober today, I don’t think that would have happened with this method, or without this method or medication. And I kind of got there by accident, to be honest, that was not my intention. But sometimes people rely only on the medication. And they’re not like you’re talking about, they’re not changing habits, and like the information you share in your podcast and your book and everything, like, if this method is coupled with something like that, like people becoming more aware of what’s going on in their brain and that, you know, drinking, yes, it is this, you know, very pleasurable thing we’re doing. That’s very reinforcing. And like, that’s why like, I like the term alcohol use disorder better as opposed to like addiction. But when people are relying only on the medication, and not changing habits, or not like doing other things to really bring meaning and fulfillment into their life, the medication will only take them so far. So it’s not like this magic pill that is going to fix all your problems. And you know, all of that, but it does the amazing thing of getting rid of the cravings and giving you back control. And that’s like, for me, that was the missing piece, honestly. So you are completely alcohol free, then? I am Yeah, I haven’t I went on the method over four years ago. And after a year on the method, I stopped drinking, just because I honestly kept like forgetting to drink. And you hear that from people a lot where I took like, I was drinking like once a month toward the end of the method, I just would like have a glass of wine once in a while. And again, this is like no cravings in between no urges to drink that was just like how much I wanted to drink. But what happened is, I just kept going like longer and longer and another month of passing another month. And I ended up after four months of not drinking, I was like, Well, I think I’m just gonna like claim that I don’t drink anymore. But I still have naltrexone, I might still drink again one day. And I know the majority of people that go on this method do still drink. I think there’s a statistic out there like 70%. And you always take the naltrexone beforehand, it’s kind of like your protector in a way. But that’s what’s amazing about this method is that it it, it rewires your brain in such a way where it’s put back to the place it was in before that, that wiring was in place, it’s driving alcohol use disorder. And so you become, quote, unquote, a normal drinker, where you can go to a special occasion and have a couple glasses and not feel like you’re gonna go overboard. And so it it and that’s what the science proves that it just like resets your brain. And so a lot of people can, maybe they had alcohol problems before, but after six months or a year on this method, they’re totally back in control, and they’re moderately drinking. And that’s the majority of the people I know like it’s more rare for people like to go abstinent like I did. All right, so tell me more about your community about the Sinclair method community. Yeah, so we just launched that this month, actually, October 1, we launched it. And what this platform is, is my partner Karen and I, we’ve both been TSM coaches. TSM is the Sinclair method. We’ve both been coaches, and we’re both success stories of this method. And what’s happened is because the Sinclair method is still somewhat of this, you know, unknown treatment to the mainstream, though, again, that’s starting to change. What happens with people and we really discovered this as coaches is that people come to you for guidance and support, like on the habit change, just like the practice little tips of how to do the method what to expect in the first 3060 90 days. When do I start having alcohol free days, you know all there’s so many, because this is like a six to nine month process. There’s like so many things that come up throughout that time. And so as coaches working with people, what we were finding is we’re having to send people, you know, over here for this information over here for this information, because it’s not something that’s like, super mainstream yet. And so kind of the information, you have to find it across the web in some sense. And so that’s where we really created this platform, from wanting it to be a place where people can come and get everything they need for the Sinclair method under one virtual roof, so to speak. And so we’ve created courses that will really guide someone step by step through the method, we offer group coaching, so people can join and get group support from a TSM coach, and also other peers. And then we have like live events and other just, you know, content and information to really guide them through this process. And the last thing about it is, we have a live feed on the community, kind of like what you would see in a Facebook group, so people can post in real time and ask questions and connect with other community members. So we’re really hoping that this platform will help to set people up for success on the method and really give them everything that they need to be successful from like day one, and just getting started all the way through to when they reach their goals around drinking, whether that’s moderation or abstinence. So that’s why we created this platform, just to be that kind of hub that people can plug into, because so often I hear from people, you know, maybe they had a doctor that knew about naltrexone, and how it works to fix drinking problems, and they get on this method years ago, but they’re not following the protocol correctly, which is like the golden rule, you have to follow it correctly and consistently for it to work. But I just hear from people over and over again, like, Oh, I didn’t have the right information or support last time. And so it didn’t work for me, but now they’re back on it, and it’s working again. So that’s why we created this platform to be that hub for people to plug into and get the support that’s right for them changing their relationship with alcohol through this method. Wow. Okay, so that is awesome. And so of course, folks, I’ll link that all in the show notes where you can find Katie and Karen and this community, because I think it’s a really valuable tool, especially for those of you who are, you know, struggling with the way especially if you are a binge drinker, somebody that’s, you know, struggling with consistency. And I think Katie kind of nailed it right there. I tell people all the time. For me personally, this process took about two years. So you know, it and it wasn’t because of, really, for me, it wasn’t because of an ongoing craving issue. It was just that’s the pace I took because I really wanted sustainable change. And I wanted to be able to know in my heart of hearts that I was completely at peace with my relationship with alcohol that I I know that there’s other people that are listening that probably have the same feeling if maybe you had it too. It’s just a lot of anxiety around your drinking, you know, and that was really for me, what was the driving factor? I did not want to keep feeling so anxious. And would you have said that for you yourself as well? Oh, yeah, Conte constantly anxious about it, and just like you like wanting to have control over it and not do go overboard with it. But it was like I would spend so much time thinking about it. And then when it came down to the drinking and stuff, I would just almost always lose control. But yeah, it takes time because it’s such an ingrained habit. It’s such a rewarding experience, we get in this very intimate relationship with alcohol. For me, I felt like it was like, you know, kind of breaking up with a bad lover who was like, Okay, I need to this is a very toxic relationship, but I keep coming back to it. But yeah, it’s, it’s something that takes time to change. I think that’s a prices a lot of people to when they get on the method is like, Okay, I’m losing my cravings for alcohol, but like, I still feel all of these emotions. Right? Well, that’s all the thoughts, right? Those are all just like you said, the, what you’ve decided that alcohol means for you, is really you know, and that’s why I talk about it all the time. We have to really uncover all of that unconscious thinking and all the things that we’ve, we we believe about alcohol, and it’s really changing those core beliefs and understanding that we have the ability to change those beliefs about alcohol, because when you’re stuck in a habit like that, it can you know, I I called my habit, oxymoronic because it made no sense to me in a logical way, because I’d be like, Okay, let me get this straight. I have a mother who’s abused alcohol for 40 years. It’s been like the underscore of my life. And yet, here I am, you know, drinking more than I know is good for me drinking more than I want to and I can’t see You want to stop doing it very ironic, right? Doesn’t didn’t make a lot of sense to me. Well, this has been wonderful. And I can’t wait to share the information for reaching out for people. And I love the fact that you guys are providing a platform that will give people support to enable them to be consistent over time. And I appreciate the fact that you are telling people, you know, it’s going to take time, because one of the things I just did my last two podcasts were inspired by a Facebook ad that I got, I’ve been listening to them, they’re great, but I know I, I hear you. I really do. So I’m pushing out about that. Yeah, I you know, but when people say like, you know, in five days, you can fix something that’s been going on for, for me for 30 plus years, it’s like, I just get frustrated by that, because I feel like it just, it plays on that total anxious fear. And it speaks to that. And everybody wants a quick fix. I mean, who doesn’t want a quick fix, right? But quick fixes, just in my experiences aren’t sustainable over time. Not with anything. Yeah, right. And so that’s what I love about this, I love the fact that you guys are in this for, you know, a journey with people and really supporting them through the process. And I appreciate the fact that in addition to your saying it really, you know, really clearly here, it’s not about just taking a pill folks, it’s about changing your thoughts about alcohol. And if this pill helps you do it, then I am all in. So well, I’m good, like your work that you’re doing as well. Like, it’s really important. And I think setting that expectation also that this is like you’re changing yourself. And we all want that quick fix, we all want that quick success, we want the quick, it’s like a you know, link clicks society where you click and get something to your house in a day or two. And it’s not that way when we’re talking about ourselves. So it is really important to set that expectation for people because like you said, that ad of like get it fixed in five days is just setting people up for disappointment. And like, what we want to do with our platform, and with the Sinclair method is like set people up for success. And if you’re not ready to embark on this journey, that’s going to take time, then that’s okay. And same with, you know, the work you’re doing, it’s like, maybe it’ll be ready in a few months from now, but I’m not going to give you something that’s going to promise something that probably won’t happen, and it’ll just leave you feeling worse at the end. Well, I just tell people, you know, my goal is to not to, is to meet people where they’re at, and start there and take those small steps, and just be willing to understand that small steps when added up over time, you know, equal big gains. But we can’t get to point from point A to point C without going through B and we need to make that, you know, make that journey and in smaller increments. That’s just what I’ve what I found to be successful for me. And I say it all the time. i If you had told me back at the beginning of 2019, that I’d be sitting here having this conversation with you. And I’m sure you feel the same way. Like, you know, five years ago, if you would have said, you’d be here having this conversation with me, you would have said nope, nope, not possible. Right. Yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s amazing how quickly time goes by, of course, and like when you are embarking on this change, because I do see people they think, Oh, this pill is gonna be a quick fix. And they’re kind of let down when it’s not. But every day, you can make progress. And even though it’s little steps, like if you can see little bits of progress and celebrate those, and that will really anchor in that positive change. It adds up so quickly over time, it really does. And it’s about those little consistent efforts every single day, whether you’re on the Sinclair method or something else, it’s just seeing yourself make those changes and realizing like a lot of what your work does, it’s just, you’re in control of your mind and your thoughts. And like, I think a lot of us, when we struggle with alcohol, we feel victim to it, and like it’s controlling us. And we’re really allowing that to happen. And once we realize that we have the power and we can change our thoughts and change our behaviors and our actions. Yes, it will take time, it’s not going to be a quick fix. But that is like a beautiful transformational journey. Like I am so grateful for the journey I’ve been on and I’m sure you are too of changing this relationship with alcohol because it’s such a beautiful one where you can get to know yourself on a deeper level and see yourself blossom in a way you never thought possible. And so it’s like, it’s so meaningful. It really is. Yeah, and it’s a meta skill. I say it all the time. You know, this is this is the area of my life that I needed to address first, but understanding that I have the power in my life really that I am not at the effect of this world but I get to create the life I want to live I get to create and I know it sounds cheesy, I know it sounds all woowoo and stuff but for me and you know I’m quite a bit older than you are but you know, I I literally did not make this connection where I really understood how in control my brain was for creating My own feelings in my life. I literally was, you know, and I think a lot of us don’t really think we think that it’s the circumstances in our lives that are causing us to feel one way or the other. And we do not realize how much power we have in that process, too. And that we do control that process in terms of the thoughts that we have, and the judgments that we make. And it’s those judgments and that decision that we we make what we make are the circumstances mean in our life, that create how we feel. And truly that whole part of this process, for me, is life changing, because it really does make me you know, it makes me look at everything in my world differently. And so, and that, you know, that can happen for anyone at any time. And it does not matter how old you are, how long you’ve been drinking, what you’re you know, or what other habits you may have that don’t serve you. This process can can help change it. Yeah, absolutely. And I know you said it sounds cliche, but what I found to be true is that like, through this process, like all those cliches, it’s like, oh, they’re actually right. And they’re true. But it’s true. Well, Katie, I just have loved talking to you. I appreciate you coming on the show. I appreciate you hanging in with me when I didn’t show up on time this morning, folks. That’s just how we roll. And so I am looking forward to sharing this information with all of my audience. And folks, we will put you I will have all the show notes so that you can connect with Katie lane and Karen Dion over at the TSM community.com. Perfect. That’s it. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Thanks, Katie. Thank you for listening to breaking the bottle legacy. This podcast is dedicated to helping you change your drinking habits and to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Take something that you learned in today’s episode and apply it to your life this week. Transformation is possible. You have the power to change your relationship with alcohol. Now, for more information, please visit me at www dot Molly watts.com