Alcohol & Aging with Janet Gourand from Tribe SOber
In Episode 30 of “Breaking the Bottle Legacy” with host Molly Watts, listeners are invited to embark on a transformative journey to change their drinking habits and cultivate a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Molly shares her mission to offer real scientific insights and practical strategies, emphasizing the power of using one’s own brain to reshape their alcohol connection. The episode features a conversation with guest Janet Goren, who discusses her own experiences with alcohol, including moments of blackout drinking and the impact on her life and health. Janet shares her path to sobriety, highlighting the challenges of breaking free from the grip of alcohol, especially as one ages. Through their discussion, listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of alcohol dependence and the profound changes that can occur when one decides to confront and reshape their relationship with alcohol. The episode concludes with a reminder of the importance of reframing beliefs about alcohol, seeking support, and applying newfound knowledge to create a healthier, more peaceful life. Janet provides a valuable resource for listeners through TribeSober.com, offering a supportive community for those exploring a sober lifestyle. As always, the episode encourages listeners to take the lessons learned and apply them to their own lives, empowering them to change their drinking habits and embrace a peaceful existence.
You’re listening to break in the bottle legacy with Molly watts, Episode 30. Hi, I’m Molly, after a lifetime living under the influence of family alcohol abuse, spending more than 30 years worrying about alcohol and my own drinking, believing I had an unbreakable daily drinking habit, I changed my relationship with alcohol forever. If you want to change your drinking habits than breaking the bottle legacy is for you. My goal is to help you create a peaceful relationship with alcohol, past, present, and future. Each week all focus on real science and using your own brain to change your relationship with alcohol. Nothing has gone wrong, you’re not broken, you’re not sick. It’s not your genes. And creating peace is possible. I’m here to help you do it. Let’s start now. Hello, and welcome. Or Welcome back to breaking the bottle legacy with me your host, Molly watts, coming to you from an absolutely glorious morning here in Oregon. Are you tired of hearing me talk about Oregon in the summertime yet? I hope not. I have a few more months, a couple more months, at least I hope. And I would love for you to come experience it too. If you haven’t been to the Pacific Northwest. This is the time to do it. I say it all the time. All right. Today on the podcast, I am speaking to Janet Gorgrond. And Janet and I are going to be talking about alcohol and aging. Janet is really an inspiration in this area because Janet drank until she was 63 years old. And then she decided to become completely sober and alcohol free. And she has been so for six years. Afterwards, she started her own workshops and group called tribe sober. And she is doing just wonderful work with folks. But I really wanted to have her on the show to talk about how alcohol and aging and don’t really go together and how she has found this journey and why she is so passionate about sharing it with other folks and especially folks who, like herself have been drinking for decades and are older and may not believe that they can change. Hear it from me now. You are never too old. It’s never too late. And I hope you enjoy my conversation with Janet grant. I Janet, thank you so much for joining me. I was gonna say this morning, but I think it’s technically this afternoon for you. So whichever timezone you’re in, folks, thank you, Janet Goren for joining me on the podcast to talk today about alcohol and aging. Oh, it’s such a pleasure, Molly, and thank you for inviting me. Are you okay with being an aging expert here on this? Is that something you’re gonna claim for for the world? Well, I certainly can’t claim to have ditched the booze when I was young. So later in life, so I’m a very good example, actually. Yeah. So I dish the booze at the age of 63. And I’m now six years so but so you can do the mouse? Well, I want to talk a little bit more about that. So. So for those folks that don’t know about you, I’ve given a brief introduction and in terms of tribes sober and the work that you’re doing, but I didn’t talk much about your backstory. So tell me how you got to at 63 a point where you felt like okay, you know, I’ve this has gone on long enough. I need to change my habits. Yeah, yeah. Finally, I always say better late. Course better late and and and there you have it, folks. One thing I always say to everybody, and I want everyone to hear you’re never too old. It’s never too late. You can always make better, better choices. All right, go. It’s the best thing I ever did. But yeah, I we held workshops regularly. So I always share my story at the beginning of the workshop. So as I’m quite old now the story is long. But I’ve what I do is I highlight it into three wakeup calls, as I call it, and I ignored the first two and finally wake up, wake up call number three, I listened. So the first wake up call came at the age of 25. When I woke up in hospital one morning, I had no idea why I was in hospital what had happened where I was, but eventually thanks to my flatmates explaining to me, what had transpired is I’ve been sitting around with my flatmates or shared flats in London in my 20s. And you know, we worked hard, play hard, nothing hectic, but I’d been sitting drinking for hours. And then I’d announced that I was going to have a bath so I trotted off to the bathroom, lock the door and then got in my path, but I was completely blackouts at this stage. So I can’t remember any of this. So one of my flatmates fortunately for me decided that she check on me before she went to bed. So she hammered on the door, you know, you came in there and didn’t hear anything. And then she panics, you know, so the other flatmates were hammering at the door, still no response. So they called 999. Emergency in UK, the fire brigade came, they knocked the door down, and they rushed me off to hospital and I was lying there under the water, you know, another, another 20 minutes or so. And that would have been the end of me. So that was crazy. But instead of thinking, right, that was that was not right. You know, I’ve got to do something here. I’ve got to get some help. Some advice. We just all turned it into a story. You know, it was just did you hear about Janet in her bath, you know, what an idiot and everyone was laughing. And it was it became a bit of a legend. And I just didn’t make any changes. And I carried on I mean that that wasn’t my, my regular evening and by any means. But I was drinking pretty much daily, but certainly not, you know, going over the top or passing out or anything. So that was my 20s. When I was 30, I got married to someone else who loves to drink as a surprise. So we had Dino both had good corporate jobs, working hard, playing hard, always, you know, bottle of wine with dinner, maybe a shot of Jack Daniels. When we got home. More at the weekends, we’d have dinner parties that went on till three o’clock in the morning. But, you know, we just thought we were having fun and doing what everybody else did. And sure enough, all of our friends drank like house, it was very normalized. So yeah, that was really my 30s I did have my son when I was early 30s. But I managed to stop drinking for nine months. But it was hard to you know, I couldn’t wait to celebrate the baby’s birth. And there I was off again. You know, I never thought about giving up permanently. It never occurred to me. So I got divorced in my 40s and remarried. And that’s when troubles started. Because I married a Frenchman, the French tend to have different attitudes towards alcohol. I mean, we’re kind of renowned for binge drinking in the UK. And you know, we go out almost with that intention, you know, to have a bit too much. Whereas that doesn’t really happen me in Prout, so he was one of these annoying people that can very much moderate, you know, he has a glass of wine. And then he goes, When does something else, you know, and I’m like, there’s still wine and bottle while we’re finishing this. So it became apparent that I was drinking more than, you know, he found acceptable he, he kind of nagged me for a while, but I’m a bit of a rebel. So I just got more stubborn and said, Well, this is who I am, you know, when I, I like, I work hard, but when I let my hair down, I like to drink. And, you know, that’s what I’ve always done. But there were a couple of blackouts. And then he got more and more annoyed, and the ultimatum started coming. So I decided that because I wanted to stay with him, I would try and moderate. I mean, I couldn’t, couldn’t possibly give up alcohol and Good grief. You know, what would life be like, without wine, I was thinking I just could not imagine it. So I thought, right, I’m a strong person, I always, you know, get what, what I wanted sheave what I need to so I can do this, I can control it. So I looked at the low risk limits. And I was horrified to see that were just a bottle and a half of wine a week. And that was my normal evening consumption. So I thought, Wow, big changes needed here. But I had a little note book, and I would try and I would log all my units. And I could probably manage for two weeks, even three once but then the wheels would come off and I just drink until I blacked out. So that was a miserable time. And I call it the moderation trap now that I can look back with some perspective. And I realized that, you know, it was I was just trapped in this cycle. And it went on and on. And every time I fail, my self esteem was on the floor, and I thought, Oh, this is dreadful. But you know, I carried on trying and then I had a wake up call number two, which was breast cancer. And I’m quite convinced now that my decades of heavy drinking had a link there to breast cancer. But at the time when complete denial. And it was a tough year for me. I had my sick to me and chemotherapy, but never thought about giving up drinking. I did ask the oncologist towards the end of my treatments, do you recommend you know that I eat certain foods? Shala eat organic Shala? Do we shall I do that? Because I’ll do anything. I don’t want to go through this again. Shall I give up alcohol? I remember asking him. And he said, No, he said, You go off and enjoy your life. You know, you’ve got through this. And now you can, you must enjoy and treasure the time that you’ve got interesting. So So I did. Character enjoyed myself. And then finally in my 60s, I was 63. I had the final wake up call. I was away, staying in a beautiful house with about 10 Other people just for a weekend. And they were mostly heavy drinkers. And it was the kind of weekend where you have bubbly at breakfast and carry on really? So Saturday, we went through Saturday, Sunday morning, we’re all having breakfast outside. And I said in this I felt dreadful, dreadful hangover, but of course, wouldn’t admit it. And then I said to the guys, oh, you know, why don’t we walk to such and such a village and have a look at this house that I’ve heard about because maybe we can rent that one next time. And they all looked at me and they said, Jana, we did that yesterday, and you were with us. And you were walking, okay, we’re talking Okay. And that just scared me to death because I thought, wow, you know, I knew I was damaging my body. But I didn’t realize I was damaging my brain as well. I’d lost an entire day, more or less had no no memory. So So that was it, really. So I woke up the next day and I said to my long suffering husband, I said, That’s it. I’m done with alcohol, but I can’t do this anymore. And he said, Okay, you know, he didn’t say, Oh, I’ve heard that before. Because they hadn’t, I’d always said I’m going to cut down I’m going down. So obviously then I had to find how to do it. So I trotted off to AAA and I didn’t like that. So eventually, I found a workshop in London, just a one day workshop. And that worked for me not so much the workshop. But because the people I met there, I felt I kept found my people, you know, there were women with good jobs, nice families drinking a bottle of wine and lights. And they knew it wasn’t sustainable as they got older. So I kept in touch with these people and got sober, came back to South Africa and thought, well, I’ve got 25 years experience in training and development. So why don’t I set up my own workshop. And that’s how tribe cyber was bought years ago. That is just an epic story. I kept that that story about your 20s. That’s really scary. Oh, yeah, that’s amazing. I really appreciate you sharing that. And I want everyone to hear all of this because it’s it’s super, it’s it’s important. And it’s really important to have the conversation. And Janet, you and I’ve talked offline and a few times about this, this whole idea of you know that I am not totally 100%. sober. I don’t know that moderation is what and I talk about being an alcohol minimalist. And you mentioned the low risk guidelines. And they’re different in every country, here in the US, for most for women. And what’s interesting about it is that they specify in these low risk drinking limits here in the US 65 and under. Okay, so let’s think about that. It’s specific age specific, as well. So it means that and the reason they do that is because as you get older, the way that you metabolize alcohol changes. But before we get to that, what I want to talk about though, I want to want to say about the low risk limits is you and I both agree that if people cannot stick to low risk limits, if they find that challenging, if they cannot do it, then alcohol free abstinence sobriety is definitely the best choice. Yeah, um, don’t waste a decade like or just come to terms with it after maybe a year but if you just can’t do it, then well, I wish I’d known then. Which I know now obviously, is it’s so much easier for some of us just to ditch the stuff you know, get it out of your life and then you do have to then reconfigure your life and do other stuff that you didn’t used to do when you were drinking. Right and create a life you don’t want to escape from we always say, right, yeah, and I think that’s the key differentiator. I think that that’s the big difference for me the reason that I feel that I am able to stick to those low low risk limits is because I have shifted my, how I use alcohol, I no longer reach for alcohol as a coping strategy to try to change how I’m feeling. I’m very, very cognizant of that. And for decades, even if I wasn’t drinking a full bottle of wine or a bottle of wine, I mean, I was drinking plenty folks I was drinking. Well, well beyond the low risk limits, and what would be defined as heavy, heavy alcohol use here in the US. It’s where it gets tricky for me or where I think people for why I have always, it’s different is I never drank too black to get to be to blackout stage. I was never a binge drinker, really. I was a long standing habit drinker, and I drank far beyond the limits on an on a daily basis. And so it’s different for for those of you that are still that are binging alcohol, I recognize that there is a different use there. And you really have to become cognizant of that. And I do think that that is for many people that are binge drinking that potentially sobriety or alcohol free living abstinence is potentially an easier and, and just more fulfilling choice. 100% Yeah, because it’s so easy for us people that we’ve once we’ve crossed a line really there’s no going back, because maybe we can moderate as you heard be saying for two three weeks, but but it’s not sustainable. It creeps often creeps up and we end up back to square one. Yeah, you know, I say it on the podcast, the safest level of drinking is zero, folks, zero. And I say I’m an alcohol minimalist, because I don’t want anybody to get the idea that that moderation is an is a permission slip for binging. Because that’s not the case. You can’t like be abstinent five days a week. And, you know, drink seven drinks in one evening and call yourself a moderate drinker. That’s not the way it works. You know? So it’s a it’s interesting. All right, so let’s talk about aging. Because like I said, you have an unusual story, there’s not a lot of people who, you know, later in life believe that they can take hold and change one of these really decades long habits. And quite honestly, I mean, I’m in my 50s. So that wasn’t I mean, it still, for me, it was an ingrained. 30 plus year habit took a lot of time for me to change. I wasn’t that because I took it slower than you did. I didn’t you know, I didn’t have a wake up moment, per se. I didn’t have one of those to hit me over the head kind of and I didn’t have any, like I said, No blackouts. But bottom line is, you did change this habit. And you did conquer it. And you did it. Because also you mentioned the breast cancer scare. We know that as we age, things start to shift in our bodies. I mean, it’s just a fact of, of life, right? And alcohol can. And the way that we metabolize alcohol as we get older changes as well. Our immune system gets weaker naturally as we get older, and alcohol damages our immune system. So it’s it’s a double whammy. And that I think they now link alcohol with seven different types of cancer and 60 diseases. Yeah, and I think that the statistic here in the US is that by the age of 65 80% of all adults, and I don’t know how this is on an international basis, but I got to believe that it’s probably pretty consistent across the globe. In the US, I believe it’s 80% of all six people 65 and older have at least one chronic disease state. And it’s a pretty high percentage that have at least two as well. And so, and the number one chronic disease state for people 65 and older, is hypertension, high blood pressure. And if you don’t know this, folks, alcohol raises your blood pressure almost immediately upon drinking it. So there are science based very much applicable for people as they age reasons to shift your drinking habits. Period. I was gonna say Malia, I just think it’s one of the best things that we can do for ourselves as we get older. I mean, I was I wish that I’d done it younger, but I think you know, as as we get into our 40s Because most people if people in our community, they all have similar stories and mine was also like this apart from my my boss, escapade. Basically I used alcohol socialize in my 20s my 30s but then I 40s and 50s, it was more self medicating, you know, using it to manage my stress using it relax. So I think when you when you get to that stage, it makes a lot of sense to, to try and make it make a change because that the health benefits are huge. And it means that the second part of your life will look very different for many people. I think if I kept drinking, at the rate I was drinking for the last six years, you know, I’m not sure I’d be standing here talking to you now. Because there are many risks as we get older. In your group, are you talking with other women that are of a particular age? So are you know, in their 50s? And 60s, what stories do you hear from them in terms of what do you think makes it the most challenging for people that are older to make these changes? Is it just is it mindset? Is it all like, they’re just, they’re just they think this is who they are? And they just can’t they can’t change that? Yeah, I mean, you mentioned yourself, didn’t you Malia that if we’ve been doing this for decades, it’s almost part of our identity. And all of our friends tend to be drinkers as well. And all of the things we like doing tends to be alcohol related, or the social events. So it is difficult to make a change. And it’s particularly difficult to make a change on your own, I think, because again, that’s why I was trapped for years, because I had a lot of pride. And I didn’t want to admit that I had a problem. So because I knew that if I if I came out and said, Oh, I’m stopping drinking, everyone would say, Oh, are you an alcoholic? I didn’t want that label. You know, that’s why I like, like AAA. So yeah, I think so many of us try to make that change alone. That’s what we find in our community. And when people join us, they say things like, Oh, I’m so relieved, you know that I’m not the only person that is like this. Because if you are surrounded by people, like my husband, you know, he can have one glass of wine and forget about it, then you start to think, well, what’s wrong with me? Why can’t I do that? And then you really try and then you can’t. So I think accepting that you’ve got a problem and then reaching out for some help is, is absolutely the biggest step. To You know, I always say to that to people when they come to workshop is, you know, 70% of success is showing up and you shown up, you know, you’ve admitted that there’s a problem, you’ve reached out for some help, and then you’ve, you’ve taken up that help. So that is by far the biggest step put. And after that, it’s practical things, it’s more about strategies. And then it’s about sticking with it until the benefits come in. Because we’re not when I gave up I was desperate to I knew I had to do this, if I wanted to survive, but I wasn’t expecting it to be a good life. You know, I thought I Well, I’ve had lots of time in my life, to be miserable, and you’ll just have to suffer through. Absolutely, I thought sobriety is a dark and miserable place and every single beat gray and I really bought into that nonsense. And it took me you know a good six months to a year to start realizing how much better I felt you know, my mind cleared when I got my energy back I got my creativity back. I started feeling a sense of purpose again as I was helping other people to ditch the drink. So I’ve one of my favorite books is called the surprising joy of being so bad. Yeah, just that title sums up my my journey. I love that title. Because it wasn’t a huge surprise. And many people are like that. And that’s why they resist the thought of getting sober because they think it’s going to be dreadful. Yeah, no, I agree. And I you know, like I’ve said, I I think it applies whether or not you’re completely sober or you’re just trying to change your relationship with alcohol and cut back on what you’re doing and really move alcohol into a different place in your life. For me, letting go of all the anxiety and the worry, I grew up with an alcoholic parent and I had I mean, she was an alcoholic through all of my life. So my habit fed this constant, endless you know, just relentless worry, and anxiety in my life. And I was really kind of unaware how much of my time I spent in worry and an anxiety and I was also feeding it of course with alcohol which I’ve talked about before in one of the other alcohol and caught interviews folks are not interviews. What are the other alcohol and and podcasts, alcohol and anxiety, you can go back and listen to it. But the whole idea of being able to be free from that worry, for me was the biggest change, you know, and I definitely, I didn’t realize, I didn’t realize how much that was how much that was going to be available to me, I like you, I really told myself that not having my nightly drinks was going to be absolutely miserable. You know, I just really convinced myself, not only it wasn’t going to be miserable, it was going to be really, really hard, you know, really going to be really, really hard to do. And while it took some time it did it took time. It isn’t nearly once you get there, it’s not nearly as hard as I, as I, you know, convinced myself for decades that it would be Yeah, I mean, it’s the limiting beliefs, isn’t it, that that trap, it’s and that’s why your ally grace is so so wonderful. I’m a great fan of hers. You know, because we all we have this voice in our head. I mean, I had it for 20 years, I think, and it says, You’ve got to do something about your drinking, you’re drinking too much. And then we have all these other voices that spring up from our subconscious that say, but how will I have fun, I’m gonna lose all my friends, how will I relax. So we have to acknowledge those voices in the subconscious and work on turning them around. And I always give the example of my socializing thing because I was convinced I would never be able to socialize without alcohol. But I knew that I couldn’t be a recluse. So I just forced myself out, you know, time after time, and I hated every minute of it mostly. But I would see every outing was a challenge, I would come home and write it up in my journal, another ticking the box. And I did that for months. And then eventually, I still remember the moment coming home from something. And I thought, Oh, what a nice evening, you know, and I’m going to meet that one next week. And I must read that book. And then I realized that I hadn’t been drinking, and I’d had a nice evening. So it was like my subconscious suddenly realized, Oh, it is possible. And then it got easier. You know, it wasn’t great every time but it definitely got easier. So the way that you deal with those limiting beliefs is by proving I think, to your subconscious, that the just a pile of rubbish. Yeah, absolutely. No matter how old you are. And we’ve said it at the beginning, just continue to say it, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve held on to those limiting beliefs, you can change them, it takes mindful intention. And it takes recognizing them recognizing uncovering the stories that we’ve we’ve told ourselves for so long, or we’ve heard from society or, you know, an auntie Grace talks about that to these challenges and to our own awareness, their challenges to our own power, but we’ve, we’ve got the right we’ve got the power within our own brains to rewrite those stories. And that’s what’s been so incredible for me in terms of how I’ve reframed alcohol in my life. It’s also been cathartic, because I’ve reframed how the stories that I had regarding my mother and her own abuse, and I think you mentioned not wanting to have that label of alcoholic on you. And that, to me is one of the one of the problems that we have in terms of addressing people with alcohol use disorder, we don’t use the you know, the terminology alcoholic around we’re not that’s it’s not politically correct anymore. But regardless, no matter what we call it, when we don’t allow people to not be broken, to not be sick, to not be diseased to not have strength because they are drinking more than they want to, we have to be able to say, Okay, this is just something that I’ve been, in my opinion, we just have, this is something that’s been going on, I need to change it, I have the power to change it. And it doesn’t mean anything more than that, you know, it’s just it’s it’s just as simple as that there’s doesn’t need to be a morality around alcohol. And I I find that to be the case. Yeah, I knew that Molly was going to shift things for lots of people I feel very hopeful about this, this label. Because you know, the spectrum how at one end, we’ve got the non drinker and the other end, the alcoholic, you know, who’s the man in the potluck, and we think well, that’s not me, so I’m fine. But now with the sober curious movement, I think it’s going to be so much easier for people to say, Well, I’m not drinking because I’m sober curious, so I want to have a break for a while and see how I feel. You know, what is my life look like without Alcohol. Yeah. And I think that that could really create a change for a lot of people. Yeah. It’s not scary to come out and say I’m sober curious, ya know, and I think it’s even if it’s, you know, I’m, I’m, I love alcohol free days alcohol free living and I incorporate a 30 day alcohol free month into my year. I think that’s important because it does allow us that opportunity to, to really question our own ideas, values, how we’re how we’re incorporating alcohol into our lives. And it’s all about for me, it’s all about keeping alcohol in a you know, it being mindful, being intentional, and understanding my relationship with it. So regardless, and again, folks, whether you choose to be completely alcohol free, completely sober, or in my like, is that an alcohol minimalist? There’s, that’s, that’s the way you need to the best ways that you can incorporate or have a peaceful relationship with alcohol, at least in my opinion. Okay, so Janet, before we go, I just want to touch base on one study that I read that I that, I think it’s, it’s always the same. There’s a lot of mixed news about alcohol, we get different impressions, right, we hear, Oh, red wine is good for our heart. And there’s been some standards been associated studies about alcohol and how it and and actually like, reducing dementia, right in older people. And I think people hold on to these ideas with associative studies as like, Oh, see, I’m doing something good for me. Which is so dangerous, because the bottom line is, at least everything that I have understood about all studies regarding alcohol is in at least in humans, is that it’s, they’re all associative, right? Because we can’t rule out everybody has to eat, everybody has to sleep. Everybody has to do these other parts of their lives, right? So they can’t just give people alcohol and nothing else. So there’s never any way that they can define exactly what has happened that is causing whatever result they get in a study. So when they say that, that they what they do is they take this, this study, and they look at these people, and they look at their lives, and they have them, tell them what they’ve done. And then they say, oh, okay, well, they they have a lower rate of dementia and they drank. But it’s not like one causes the other, right? Yeah, I think the red wine study is absolutely classic. I remember when I was drinking, I seized on that one, red wine. I think I might even have switched from white wine to red wine at the time. But I must look after myself. That night, since I’ve been sober and doing this, I investigated that particular study a little bit. It was a tiny study it the women, it was just women in the study, they were all between 55 and 60. So it was a very kind of small and extensive cohort. And I think they had three really small glasses of wine a week. And yeah, they did manage to detect a little improvement in the heart health, but I mean, that was a small group of people and tiny glasses of wine. But people like me, you know, they immediately went out and bought bottles of red wine and thought, well, it’s fine. So they’re so misleading and so dangerous. But of course, you know, the media, how their hands are tied, because a lot of them are advertising, liquor, you know, spending I was talking Yeah, so they can’t be too controversial. It’s just like cigarettes used to be and it was only when cigarette advertising was banned that the media started saying well actually cigarettes Give me what why did they really tell me this before? So yeah, I’m very very dubious about these studies now and I think that they do a lot of damage it’s a shame Yeah, well, I agree with you completely. You know, I say this on the podcast folks there is absolutely no benefit to adding alcohol to your life that’s not a you know, no one should be prescribing that it’s all about harm reduction, minimizing your the negative impact. I for one still enjoy a glass of I Am I guess I’m one of those annoying people dammit, I can take I can take a glass of wine and not have another one. But that is definitely the goal here you have to reframe your thinking about alcohol no matter how old you are, and especially if you are are in your later years 50s 60s 70s This is an opportunity to change how you are really going to live the rest of your life because it is just simply that important. It can help you live longer. It can help you live better. And, you know, be like Janet, right? Finally she got it. Yeah, life expectancy for women these days. You know, we’re fortunate is about 86 Well, I don’t want to, you know, be in my eighth season feel absolutely dreadful because I’ve got so many ailments, you know, I think we need to live longer, but healthier. Yeah, right until the end, and then just have a short, sharp illness. And, and that’s it. But not not to suffer. Because I think we’re laying the groundwork for suffering if we drink excessively every day. There’s obvious. Yeah, it is. And, and it’s possible, folks. So well, Janet, I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me today to be on the show. I appreciate all the work you’re doing for men around the world and helping people to find a tribe and to join and all of the links will be in the show notes folks on how to reach Janet. But Janet, give a shout Tell me right now how people can connect with you best tribe sober.com. There you have it. So so the podcast is called that as well. Yep. So yep, I love it. And for those of you that are really trying to explore if being a completely abstinent and having a tribe, you know, having the the sober experience is what you’re really needing. I really love all of Janet’s work. And I think you will really enjoy it. And it’s a wonderful international crowd, right? So all of us over here in the US, despite the time change, folks, you can get on and hear all of her good podcasts and you have good Facebook group lives and things like that, that work for everybody. Right? Yeah, we we’ve changed the we have a zoom Cafe on Saturday afternoons, and we’ve moved the timing because our American friends wanted to come so they can’t say I’m not getting up at four o’clock in the morning anymore. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Janet, I appreciate it. I love having chats with you. And so thank you just so much for coming on the show today. Thank you, Molly. I’m sure we’ll keep in touch. Absolutely. Thank you for listening to breaking the bottle legacy. This podcast is dedicated to helping you change your drinking habits and to create a peaceful relationship with alcohol. Take something that you learned in today’s episode and apply it to your life this week. Transformation is possible. You have the power to change your relationship with alcohol. Now, for more information, please visit me at www dot Molly watts.com